Tuesday, November 13, 2007

My Response to Joe C.

Over at Symphony of Scripture, I have been posting in the comboxes over there, defending the Catholic Faith. Joe C. responded to one of my comments, and wanted a detailed response, so I will post it here. His words are in italics.

Hey I have the Holy Spirit too, cool!!!! Guess I have as much authority as the apostles and Pope by your reasoning? I think you better restate that argument, or nix it alltogether.

The Holy Spirit, gives different gifts to different people. Not everyone is called to be a successor to the Apostles, to possess teaching authority. But those that are called, are Bishops of the Church.

If you need to fill ‘vacancies’ in an ‘office’ of apostleship (aka, mormon alert), then why aren’t there Catholic apostles? And don’t say the cardinals, bishops, and priests are. Why not exactly 12?

Sorry, Joe but the bishops are the modern day successors of the Apostles. I know you told me not to say that, but that is like saying "tell me what 2+2 is, and don't say 4!". Anyway. In Acts we see the first apostle added outside of the twelve (Paul) As the church grew, so did the numbers of apostles.

Why isn’t the Pope the most like Jesus out of all of us, Kenneth? Read my previous comment, please. If the Papacy is God ordained and infalliable (do you even see how cultish and power grabbing that is????), when from the seat of Power, then what of the crusades and burning/torturing/persecution of the heretics? Very Christian, very Christ like. All proclaimed ‘legal’ by the perpetrating Popes, and from their seats of power. Where did Jesus command such actions, how is any of that “Christian” and “From God”? I’d say that’s proof of the Papacy being not what it claims to be, among many other things, and without the Papacy, there is no Catholic anything. Think about it, and please go and study non-catholic written/influenced history, to learn what your “mother church” has done over the past 1700 years.

Because the Pope is still a man, not God. Yes, the Pope is Christs Vicar here on earth. But that does not automatically make him anything more than he is. He is NOT infallible in all things. Merely on matters of faith and morals and even then only when speaking ex cathedra. The Holy Spirit is capable of using men to speak and write infallibly. The Bible is proof of that.

About human nature, all being sinners, and infants…

“Even from birth the wicked go astray; from the womb they are wayward and speak lies.” Ps.58:3

“Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.” Ps. 51:5

All have surely sinned. All are evil by nature, by the Curse on Adam. Surely God will not hold infants accountable, but that doesn’t negate their sin nature, and wicked hearts. Have you raised children? Full of lies, deceit, and disrespect, from birth even. And, as your Pope finally decided to contradict the other popes (red flag?), they don’t need a man made tradition of infant baptism to avoid the make believe place of ‘limbo’.

Yes, all have original sin, they are not, however, "evil by nature". God created man in his own image. So if man is evil by nature, God would need to be as well. And your verses confirm original sin, something I am not denying, but they do not speak to when or whether Mary was saved from original sin. In them, David, confirms his sinfulness. They do not speak of Mary. Also, I don't believe that children are "full of lies, deceit and disrespect from birth". Perhaps I am lucky, but that does not describe my daughter at all.

As for Limbo? That was never an official teaching of the church. It was a theological theory that the current Pope settled as baseless. I am not aware of any other Pope teaching it as fact.

I’m not sure how you consistently avoid the quoted verses from Hebrews on the Sacrifice of Christ being ONCE and for all, and ONLY ONCE. You keep changing that to fit your pre conceived bias ingrained in to your mind. Please stop. And don’t accuse us of believing in an ongoing sacrifice from ‘a different point of view’, who are you, Obi Wan Kenobi? (I just watched starwars tonight, lol). It was done once, once and for all, only once. How is that not clear to you? It’s not clear because you pre-assume the Catholic position is correct, and reinterpret based on that. That’s what happens with an ‘infalliable Pope’ and Magistrate.

The Catholic Church has always affirmed that the bloody sacrifice at Calvary spoke of in Hebrews was "once for all" (CCC 1364). In the Eucharist, however, it is made present. I attempted to explain the Catholic position to you in a way you would understand. That when a Protestant "accepts Jesus as their personal Lord and Saviour" His sacrifice is made present in their lives. Apparently I am wrong, as evidenced by those who have corrected me. So I apologize.

This argument is pointless, no one is changing their minds, so I suggest we just stop. Like I brought up with an athiest evolutionist a few months ago, why come to this site to attack or defend, if you’re completely unwilling to change your mind? That means you just came to cause a fight, bicker, whatever, only you know. But why bother if you’re not willing to be open to change, or the truth on certain things? I just don’t get it. I wouldn’t go to a Catholic apologetics site if I wasn’t willing to be open to changing what I believed. Are you willing to change? I hope this message finds you well.


In debating, we search for truth. I do not seek to convert, but when I see Catholic beliefs being presented improperly, I respond. If Catholics were misrepresenting your beliefs, wouldn't you want to correct them. You may reject Catholicism, but you should accurately know what you are rejecting. Hope this helps

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