Friday, June 26, 2009

A Respons to "Anonymous" aka "sally345" aka "budge"...

I received some responses in my combox today, and although they state they are from "Anonymous" they reveal they are actually someone whom I deal with on a regular basis who goes by the screen name "sally345" or "budge".

Her first comment was on my post "By their fruits...":
You got to be kidding, you are even quibbling this to death, trying to make "outs" that do not exsist, to defend the evil corruption in your false church, [trying to claim that institutions are exempt, hate to tell you but your institution is made of the men--people that comprise it] because elsewhere in the Bible Jesus asks this: Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? As for your charities--hospitals, universities, etc, in America, they have become mostly FOR PROFIT enterprises, or if NON-PROFIT, using gobs of government money and grants. All we have to do is read our daily newspapers to know the hospitals are HUGE money-makers, the Catholic schools bastions of extreme liberalism advancing causes like abortion at Notre Dame! Socialist Humanist social workers do as much 'charity' work as the RCC!

Here is the classic anti-catholic double standard. The sins of individual Catholics are evidence of the "bad fruit" of the entire institution. But the virtues of Catholics don't transfer to the institution as a whole. Either sins AND virtues reflect on the church as a whole, or NEITHER do.

The fact is that an institution like "the church" does not have sins or virtues. It is a thing, an inanimate object. And look at Matt 7, who is the "them" it is referring to? It is referring to false prophets and teachers. Individuals nowhere does Jesus apply this to a group. If so, even the apostles themselves would fail this test. Judas betrayed them, Peter denied Jesus, Thomas doubted him. Are these "bad fruits" of the apostles as a whole?

I would point out that I raised this challenge over at CARM for the anti-Catholics to justify applying Matt 7 to institutions not just individuals, and received no response from this poster.

And, her next comment was posted on "Catholics do evangelize"
I have frequented Catholics blogs for years, Mark Shea, the Curt Jester, Amy Welborn, etc. When do Catholic blogs evangelize except to say JOIN THE RCC! Is the gospel even preached anywhere on your blog? Repent and be born again in Jesus Christ? Or is it the usual narcissistic fest, look what I DID!, look at what a HOLY PERSON I AM!....surrounded by quibbles about whether Catholics should shake hands during the Mass or bow to each other or the latest pretty dress the Pope is wearing. Where do Catholic blogs actually preach the gospel? [The RCC does not have the gospel, it preaches JOIN OUR CHURCH, like every other cult out there]
The fact is, yes, this is a group specific blog. So yes, I am going to say "Join the RCC". Just like a Baptist specific blog is going to say "Join the SBC". Otherwise, what is the point? Is a Pentacostal blog going to tell you to become a Methodist or a Mormon blog going to tell you to become a Jehovah's witness? Of course not. So that is a silly argument.

The gospel is preached. It is just not the Gospel according to sally/budge. On your site, the Gospel is not preached either. It is just "leave the RCC" which is actually the flip side of the same coin, in that, you are not telling me what religion to join to be saved, but you are telling me which one I need to leave in order to have salvation (according to you).

And your final charge that Catholic blogs discuss Catholic things? Big suprise there! Should we go over to and accuse them of only talking about politics?

Her final comment was left on: "Why the 'paperwork' matters":
I posted this on Carm before... and it basically wipes away the Catholic claim that "only the paperwork matters" [by the way where is the official list of dogmas?] oh YEAH there ISN'T ONE! I posted this on Carm the other day On paper, the Mafia doesn't exist.

On paper, NAMBLA is about love.

On paper, NOW protects "straight" women...

But are we to look at the position statements, ONLY? Or are we taught to TEST the people delivering the message?
Mt 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things.

First of all, on your charge that there is no official list of dogmas, so what? You don't accept the magisterium anyway so even if their was, what would be the point? There is the Catechism, and the list that Dr. Ludwig Ott provided, and I have challenged her many times to name me ONE dogma that is not in either of these publications. She has not, so we can assume there is not one.

Sally/budge answer my original point, how can the sins of a person be transferred onto a thing? My points in my original article stand unchallenged. Matt 12.35 is again speaking of "a man" not an "institution". I have the priviledge of knowing many good men and women who were Catholic. You would like us to believe such people do not exist.

You are right. We are called to test the PEOPLE who bring the message, but even in the Bible demons spoke truth. In Mark 1:23 a demon announced that Jesus was "the Holy One of God". Does the fact that a demon said it, make it untrue? Paperwork. In Mark 3:11 we read how "And whenever unclean spirits saw him they would fall down before him and shout, "You are the Son of God." Does the fact that these words were spoken by demons make them untrue? Paperwork again. The demon Legion, called Jesus "The most high God".

You see where this is going. Even the evil can speak truth, that is how God is able to use sinners to preach his word.

This demand for a "list" and the harping on the sins of Catholics comes solely from the belief that Catholics only believe what they do because the church "tells" us we have to. The idea that we are Catholic because it is what we believe is lost on them. They think we are forced to believe these things because we are mindless droids who have to believe whatever "they" tell us.

Of course that is not even close to being true. Oh well, same tune, different day.

Saturday, June 13, 2009

By their fruits...

Originally posted at CARM)

This verse keeps getting brought up to justify the notion that the RCC is not from God.

Let's look at the verse in context.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Now, I want to know how these verses which are speaking of recognizing false prophets can be extrapolated to the entire church.

Numerous references are brought up to the sex scandals, the inquisitions, crusades, etc.. and it is claimed this is all bad fruit of the RCC and as such since a good tree cannot bear bad fruit, that proves the RCC is a false church.

But, the verse also states that a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. The Catholic church is also the worlds largest Charity, it the worlds largest operator of private healthcare and educations services. Now, applying this verse literally, this proves the RCC is a good tree, right?

No, When you read the verse in context, you see exactly who Jesus was talking about: "False prophets". These criteria are to be applied to individuals NOT organizations. Because as Jesus pointed out in another part of the Gospel.(Matt 13:24-30) that satan has sown tares among Jesus' wheat. But that we are to leave them and HE will reap the harvest and "bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

There has always been evil men in the church, as there is in every church. It is amazing how we are so quick to judge a church on the faults of its

Thursday, June 04, 2009

Catholics DO evangelize

(Originally posted over at CARM)

I recent thread was started stating that Catholics do not evangelize. Mostly because we don't stand on streetcorners or go door to door.

Well, this is the 21st century. lists over 1000 blog feeds from Catholic Bloggers, isn't that evangelizing?

tweetcatholic has over 1700 Catholics who twitter (tweet?) regularly.

Over 1200 people have visited my apologetics blog since just the beginning of this year.

So maybe we aren't doing this:

And reaching a few people.

We are doing this:

And reaching MILLIONS!